bugFreeciv - Bugs: bug #17726, Experimental ruleset: Musketeers...

 
 
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bug #17726: Experimental ruleset: Musketeers have Shield2Gold flag, but Riflemen do not

Submitted by:  Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Submitted on:  Sun 13 Feb 2011 03:50:09 PM UTC  
 
Category: rulesetsSeverity: 3 - Normal
Priority: 5 - NormalStatus: Fixed
Assigned to: Jacob Nevins <jtn>Open/Closed: Closed
Release: 2.3.0-beta3Operating System: None
Planned Release: 2.3.0,2.4.0

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Sun 11 Mar 2012 03:29:19 PM UTC, comment #12:

> This is the best topic I found to talk about Shield2Gold issues.

Better to start a new ticket than to ping an existing one. Otherwise we'll lose it.
I've raised bug #19540 for further discussion.

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Thu 08 Mar 2012 02:19:06 AM UTC, comment #11:

This is the best topic I found to talk about Shield2Gold issues.
I have been testing the AI with gold upkeep for some time (I find it very important to enjoy this game), and I always thought that the AI does not notice when his economy is breaking due to amount of units supported by gold. When I use Shield2Gold rule, I see continually AIs that lose his buildings and units due to low funds, when they could have avoided it by just increasing a bit the tax rates. I have not checked the code, but it looks like if AI is someway blind to bankrupt caused by Shield2Gold units.

As cazfi pointed, it is possible to get a similar behavior (units changing from shield to gold upkeep under certain governments), by using "uk_shield, uk_gold and effects Unit_Upkeep_Free_Per_City and Upkeep_Factor", instead of Shield2Gold.

And my surprise was that the AI seems to manage perfectly the economy with units supported by gold when I use uk_gold instead of Shield2Gold.
I'd suggest to some coder to verify that units with uk_shield and Shield2Gold are taken into account by the AI the same way than units with uk_gold.

David Fernandez <bardo>
Sun 13 Mar 2011 11:58:07 AM UTC, SVN revision 19512:

Tweak which units have Shield2Gold in experimental ruleset.

See gna bug #17726.

(Browse SVN revision 19512)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 13 Mar 2011 11:54:29 AM UTC, SVN revision 19510:

Tweak which units have Shield2Gold in experimental ruleset.

See gna bug #17726.

(Browse SVN revision 19510)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 06 Mar 2011 11:55:41 PM UTC, comment #8:

I didn't intend to open up the question of why Shield2Gold exists at all... anyone wishing to understand that could investigate the bugs where it was added (most discussion is in the old RT); it appeared about the same time as gold_upkeep_style, I think (perhaps it finds a use in conjunction with that):

Anyway, having a "historical" justification for a feature is one thing, but if there's a gameplay justification then that probably trumps it (not that I've thought of one).

For what it's worth, for me, the effect was to cause me to avoid The Corporation to milk the free per-city production upkeep (under Communism) for as long as possible; on the other hand, gold upkeep is an advantage in a way (if your treasury can stand it) as it comes out of an empire-wide treasury rather than dragging individual cities down.

Anyway, I mainly came here to say that I intend to commit this patch soon. We've had the underlying feature since S2_2, and the experimental ruleset is just that, so it may as well be used in a consistent way.

> README.ruleset_experimental: "After The Corporation is
> researched, the upkeep for most modern military units
> (Musketeers onwards) is changed from shields to gold"

For the record, as the person who wrote that: I was just documenting the behaviour I found. (However, this reminds me that I need to tweak it for the changes in this bug, hence new patch.)

(file #12633)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Fri 04 Mar 2011 08:05:51 PM UTC, comment #7:

I think units uk_shield, uk_gold and effects Unit_Upkeep_Free_Per_City and Upkeep_Factor already model everything I see need for (setting upkeep for all units in shields under one government and in gold under another government is not even close to limits).
So, question "Why Shield2Gold exist?" is good one from my point of view. I really don't understand what we try to model with it. Or is it used purely for game balance reasons?
README.ruleset_experimental: "After The Corporation is researched, the upkeep for most modern military units (Musketeers onwards) is changed from shields to gold"
Why is upkeep of these modern units in shields before The Corporation is researched? Why only these units change, and not all?

Marko Lindqvist <cazfi>
Project Administrator
Tue 22 Feb 2011 10:19:23 AM UTC, comment #6:

My intention was only to comment this:

> I'm not sure what the historical basis for units taking
> production (and free upkeep) is -- sketchy research on Wikipedia
> suggests that even ancient armies consisted in large part of
> paid professionals


My comment should not be taken as rejection of jtn's patch. I just provided perspective you may want to consider yourself. I don't really care (this being about experimental ruleset)

Marko Lindqvist <cazfi>
Project Administrator
Tue 22 Feb 2011 05:35:57 AM UTC, comment #5:

The last two comments are both persuasive. However, the fact that two smart people came up with two [quite different] solutions suggests that we need to revisit the reason Shield2Gold exists. I would suggest that the root motivation is that in the real world, 'modern' units are not supported by individual cities, but rather by the central government. In fact, it's rather common for units now to call their "home" some remote base that only has a small village nearby. I was stationed at such when i was on active duty.

The other aspect is that more technologically advanced units will necessarily require exotic supplies that are not easily produced in every factory. How many town could really build their own Stealth Fighter? I'm not sure if we should change this effect to work by government type or stick with unit type. If units are the deciding factor, then i suggest that units supported by Shields should no longer be effective in a level of technology that corresponds to our year 1945.

David Lowe <doctorjlowe>
Tue 22 Feb 2011 12:29:53 AM UTC, comment #4:

I don't think that idea with shield upkeep of units is that they are paid, but rather that upkeep goes to repairs and new equipment. Against that background Shield2Gold flag for units does not make much sense at all. Are those certain units using gold to patch their trousers? Rather it should be government property. Some governments have more direct approach producing equipment in their own factories, and other governments buy it with gold.

Marko Lindqvist <cazfi>
Project Administrator
Mon 21 Feb 2011 10:45:34 PM UTC, comment #3:

Well, I'm not sure what the historical basis for units taking production (and free upkeep) is -- sketchy research on Wikipedia suggests that even ancient armies consisted in large part of paid professionals -- so I don't think we can use that.

I'd be tempted to start at the modern Riflemen/Cavalry/Artillery (so Musketeers/Dragoons/Cannon are the last "free" land units). For ships, start at Ironclad (Galleon/Frigate are "free").

All military units beyond that (including all air units) has Shield2Gold, with the notable exception of Partisans (as in current rules -- I think this is appropriate).

Wrt the current experimental rules, that boils down to moving the Shield2Gold flag from Musketeers to Riflemen, and adding it to Cavalry.

(file #12512)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Mon 14 Feb 2011 09:12:02 AM UTC, comment #2:

I did change all units I use (or take into account). As it seems there are some units I don't consider ... I'm not sure where the cut should be made. Which soldiers (at that time frame) should get money and no goods?

Matthias Pfafferodt <syntron>
Project Member
Sun 13 Feb 2011 06:06:19 PM UTC, comment #1:

Also, neither Dragoons nor Cavalry have Shield2gold set, although they're more or less contemporaneous with Musketeers/Riflemen.

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 13 Feb 2011 03:50:09 PM UTC, original submission:

This seems wrong; Riflemen obsolete Musketeers, and once a unit type has a salary I wouldn't expect it to not have one after an upgrade (and I think that's true of other unit types). Is it intentional?

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.

 

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Attached Files
file #12634:  trunk-S2_3-experimental-shield2gold-bis.diff added by jtn (2kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_3 19479: update README.ruleset_experimental too)
file #12512:  trunk-S2_3-experimental-shield2gold.diff added by jtn (1kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_3 r19383)

 

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  • -unavailable- added by bardo (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by doctorjlowe (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by cazfi (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by syntron (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by jtn (Submitted the item)
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    Follow 9 latest changes.

    Date Changed By Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced By
    Sun 13 Mar 2011 11:59:28 AM UTCjtnStatusReady For Test=>Fixed
      Open/ClosedOpen=>Closed
    Mon 07 Mar 2011 12:04:40 AM UTCjtnAttached File-=>Added trunk-S2_3-experimental-shield2gold-bis.diff, #12634
    Mon 07 Mar 2011 12:04:29 AM UTCjtnAttached File#12633=>Removed
    Sun 06 Mar 2011 11:55:41 PM UTCjtnAttached File-=>Added trunk-S2_3-experimental-shield2gold-bis.diff, #12633
      StatusNone=>Ready For Test
      Assigned toNone=>jtn
      Planned Release=>2.3.0,2.4.0
    Mon 21 Feb 2011 10:45:34 PM UTCjtnAttached File-=>Added trunk-S2_3-experimental-shield2gold.diff, #12512
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