patchFreeciv - Patches: patch #3432, "Core" nation group

 
 
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patch #3432: "Core" nation group

Submitted by:  J.M. Maalderink <mixcoatl>
Submitted on:  Wed 18 Jul 2012 10:32:12 PM UTC  
 
Category: generalPriority: 5 - Normal
Status: DonePrivacy: Public
Assigned to: NoneOpen/Closed: Closed
Planned Release: 2.4.0,2.5.0

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Wed 08 Aug 2012 04:46:18 PM UTC, SVN revision 21761:

Add a "Core" nation set of 50 playable nations.
If players only pick nations from this set (or none at all), then other
nations in the game will only be picked from this set, otherwise the
full range of nations will be used.
Nations were mostly selected for the "Core" group by appearance in
similar Civ games.

Original patch by J.M. Maalderink (mixcoatl@gna) with changes by me.

See gna patch #3432.

(Browse SVN revision 21761)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Wed 08 Aug 2012 04:42:09 PM UTC, SVN revision 21759:

Add a "Core" nation set of 50 playable nations.
If players only pick nations from this set (or none at all), then other
nations in the game will only be picked from this set, otherwise the
full range of nations will be used.
Nations were mostly selected for the "Core" group by appearance in
similar Civ games.

Original patch by J.M. Maalderink (mixcoatl@gna) with changes by me.

See gna patch #3432.

(Browse SVN revision 21759)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Tue 07 Aug 2012 01:18:55 PM UTC, comment #14:

> As all nations still live in same .po file, maybe you should add
> at TRANS comment next to each core nation legend so translators
> could search for those.

I was thinking that we'd split the po-file soon enough (although not for beta1).

However, since I've had to reset the clock on the Celtic patch anyway, I've updated this one to include the comments for now. They'll probably come out again if/when the po-file is split.

I'll consider this updated patch ripe for commit within 24h.

(file #16336, file #16337)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Sun 05 Aug 2012 05:14:36 PM UTC, comment #13:

As all nations still live in same .po file, maybe you should add at TRANS comment next to each core nation legend so translators could search for those.

Marko Lindqvist <cazfi>
Project Administrator
Sun 05 Aug 2012 05:03:30 PM UTC, comment #12:

>> It seems I missed the Spanish... they should be in of course.
> Who gets the chop from the "extras" to make room?

For the sake of having a patch for testing and ready to commit for 2.4.0-beta1, I've removed the Vietnamese. Rationale was based on other nations' civilwar_nations, then tie-breaker (between Polish and Vietnamese) of localisations we have today.

Will commit this soon if no-one else objects or steps up.

(file #16316, file #16317)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Sun 05 Aug 2012 02:27:45 PM UTC, comment #11:

> Is it possible to have 'extended' civil war nations spawn in a
> core nations game?

2.4 (patch #3449): not unless all other "core" nations run out, so, mostly not.
2.5 (patch #3448): not at all.

> If not then maybe it would be a good solution to add some
> non-core nations as non-playable nations to the core set,
> giving every core nation at least one related civil war nation.

Hm. I'm not sure the current solution would permit that. presumably you'd want these "civil war" nations playable when using extended nations; one goal has been to avoid having to fork any of the individual nation ruleset files; but having nations playable in one context but not another would require that, I think, unless we invent even more syntax. Plus I'm not sure that non-playable-but-civil-war-able is supported currently (haven't checked).

Having extra unplayable "civil war" nations in core would meet the goal of not overwhelming players, but would compromise the one about not overloading translators -- they'd have to translate nearly double the number of nations. (I suppose you could ignore the nation legends for these, but any po-file-splitting arrangements are unlikely to make that distinction.)

> It seems I missed the Spanish... they should be in of course.

Who gets the chop from the "extras" to make room?

>> [scenarios]
> Gallic could be represented by Celtic, British by English and
> Cambodian by Khmer. [...]

And I forgot that modern scenario format allows multiple nations to be candidates for a starting position, so we can keep the existing nation/position mappings as well (may require updating the format of scenarios).

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Mon 30 Jul 2012 09:00:43 PM UTC, comment #10:

Is it possible to have 'extended' civil war nations spawn in a core nations game? If not then maybe it would be a good solution to add some non-core nations as non-playable nations to the core set, giving every core nation at least one related civil war nation. A game with only core nations would allow for an Algerian nation in the game; it shouldn't appear when picking an nation, but it could appear in case a civil war hits the French (and/or Arabs).

> The Spanish come up a lot... maybe they should be in the "extras"? (I'm sure they've been in at least one commercial Civ.)

It seems I missed the Spanish... they should be in of course.

> earth-160x90-v2.sav: 24/30 in "core" Missing: Gallic, British, Inuit, Papuan, Cambodian, Manchu.


Gallic could be represented by Celtic, British by English and Cambodian by Khmer. Polynesian could serve as a replacement for Papuan. I'm not sure about Inuit and Manchu; some Native American nation and Hunnic would be options.

> north_america_116x100-v1.2.sav: 9/12 Missing: Spanish, Scottish, Irish.


Scottish or Irish could be represented by Celtic.

J.M. Maalderink <mixcoatl>
Project Member
Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:49:19 PM UTC, comment #9:

(BTW, another use for this core group would be if a custom tileset wanted a custom flagset -- IIRC one tileset author on the forum wanted their own flagset for some reason. This allows them to focus on a manageable number of flags.)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:48:20 PM UTC, comment #8:

For the patch #3449 approach, Barbarian and Pirate nations need to be in the Core group.
(This was probably a good idea anyway, if we were going to trigger a pot-file split based off membership in the Core group -- we need them translated.)

This won't affect the nation groups displayed to the client, as these are not playable nations.

(file #16238, file #16239)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:02:33 PM UTC, comment #7:

Patch #3449 is now committed.

I'd like to get this in for beta1, if possible. Are we happy with it the way it is, given the status wrt scenarios/civilwar/conflicts already posted?

I'm happy to commit what we have to trunk and S2_4 myself -- I'll do it before beta1 if no-one says anything. (But I'm equally happy for someone else to pick it up.)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:48:22 AM UTC, comment #6:

Updated patches attached which rely on the mechanism defined in patch #3449.

(file #16220, file #16221)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Sat 28 Jul 2012 01:30:10 AM UTC, comment #5:

Some analysis of conflicts and civil war nations within the proposed set.

Civil war nations: 32/50 of the core group have no civil war nations within the core group, so after my proposed code changes, they would spawn a random probably-unrelated nation. (Many of the other 18 have >1 civil war nation within the set.)

Conflicts within the set: 11 nations have conflicts:

  • Byzantine: Greek, Roman
  • Danish: Viking
  • French: Roman
  • Greek: Byzantine
  • Hunnic: Russian
  • Italian: Roman
  • Portuguese: Roman
  • Roman: Byzantine, Italian, French, Portuguese
  • Russian: Hunnic
  • Swedish: Viking
  • Viking: Danish, Swedish
Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Fri 27 Jul 2012 12:16:29 AM UTC, comment #4:

I went through our supplied scenarios to see how the nations in them compare to this "core" set.

Obviously some scenarios are never going to fit in the core (the Europe scenario obviously has a European bias), but some are close. Perhaps this should inform the set of five "extras" chosen for the "core". Also, we could tweak the nations in the 2.4 scenarios to fit the "core" set (in a new ticket).

  • In with a shout:
    • earth-160x90-v2.sav: 24/30 in "core"
      • Missing: Gallic, British, Inuit, Papuan, Cambodian, Manchu.
    • japan-88x100-v1.3.sav: 7/8 in "core"; only missing the Spanish
    • north_america_116x100-v1.2.sav: 9/12
      • Missing: Spanish, Scottish, Irish.
  • Lost causes:
    • british-isles-85x80-v2.80.sav: 1/5 in "core"
    • europe-200x100-v2.sav: 13/37, or 15/37 with current "extras"
    • france-140x90-v2.sav: 12/27, or 14/27 with current "extras"

The Spanish come up a lot... maybe they should be in the "extras"? (I'm sure they've been in at least one commercial Civ.)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Thu 26 Jul 2012 11:29:38 PM UTC, comment #3:

Re my comment #1, I've got some proposals for code changes to avoid these problems:

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Sat 21 Jul 2012 06:47:26 PM UTC, comment #2:

I like this solution :) As for saying it's OK not to translate the non-Core nations, I suppose we should encourage translators to work on the names of nations, as they may pop up in the game. We may, however, say that nation legends have a slightly lower priority - they don't appear a lot in the game, but take a looooooot of time to translate. Obviously, in the ideal situation, all strings should be translated, but with such huge PO files, it may be useful to prioritize some strings over other ones.

Hubert Kowalewski <hubkow>
Wed 18 Jul 2012 11:50:24 PM UTC, comment #1:

I assume this is at least partially in reaction to the recent discussion on -i18n.

I had the same idea, and I think something like this is the most we'll be able to do for S2_4. Some drawbacks:

  • Even if the single player, or all human players, pick nations from the "Core" group, there's no guarantee that all nations in the game will come from it (although I assume the match=3 tries to encourage this). This becomes a problem if we say it's OK for translators to only translate the "Core" nations -- as a player, there's no way to ensure that you don't suddenly have untranslated strings thrown at you from non-"Core" nations. This could presumably happen if matching falls back, or perhaps more likely, in case of civil war.
    • I've been wondering about doing something more radical on trunk: having a nationset choice that is orthogonal to or a subset of ruleset choice, so instead of selecting from group "Core", there's a separate drop-down where you select "Core" or "Extended" nations, each with their own groups. That way you guarantee no nations outside the set will ever be chosen. I haven't thought hard about what to do about civilwar nations pointing outside the set though, and I doubt it can be done for 2.4.
  • Conversely, the match=3 will presumably distort random nation selection where the user is happy with using the extended set, such that the same old "core" nations will tend to come up over and over rather than the full richness of the extended nation set.
  • "Core" is a bit of a soulless name for a nation group, but it's exactly what I've been referring to this idea as in my head, and I haven't thought of a better suggestion.

> It consists of nations that appear in the games from the
> Civilization series:

We've already got some of that with the separate civ1/civ2 nations.rulesets that appeared in patch #2243. Presumably you list includes Civ3 and up too.

> Celtic will be added to the game in patch #3316

[...]

> Is this still on time for 2_4?

I don't see anything in this patch that can't go on S2_4 in principle, if we accept the drawbacks (although I don't think this patch will apply cleanly, the differences should be trivial).

WRT patch #3316, we said we wouldn't put any more nations in S2_4, but I daresay we could make an exception given the rationale.
(Note that civ2/nations.ruleset already has a "Celtic" nation, this being the only one not covered in the default nations -- it's quite different from patch #3316.)

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator
Wed 18 Jul 2012 10:32:12 PM UTC, original submission:

This patch adds a "core" nation group, consisting of the historically most important nations. It's the first group that appears when pickign a nation. This will ease selecting a nation for people who don't want to plow through large nation lists can pick a core one immediately.

It consists of nations that appear in the games from the Civilization series:

American
Apache
Arab
Austrian
Aztec
Babylonian
Byzantine
Carthaginian
Celtic
Cherokee
Chinese
Danish
Dutch
Egyptian
English
Ethiopian
French
German
Greek
Hittite
Hunnic
Inca
Indian
Iroquois
Japanese
Khmer
Korean
Mali
Mayan
Mongolian
Persian
Polynesian
Portuguese
Roman
Russian
Sioux
Songhai
Sumerian
Swedish
TaĆ­no (replacement for Arawak)
Thai (replacement for Siamese)
Tupi
Turkish (replacement for Ottoman)
Viking
Zulu

I left out Native American (there are enough individual Native American nations included already) and Holy Roman (too much overlap with German/Austrian).

Celtic will be added to the game in patch #3316

Since this makes 45 I and 50 is a nice round number I decided to include an additional 5 modern nations, based on a mix between population size, historical importance and likelyhood that a player wants to play with this own nation:

Brazilian
Indonesian
Italian
Polish
Vietnamese

Is this still on time for 2_4?

J.M. Maalderink <mixcoatl>
Project Member

 

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Attached Files
file #16336:  trunk-core-nations-p3449-4.patch added by jtn (29kB - text/x-patch - trunk/S2_4 r21754: add TRANS comments for "core" nation legends)
file #16337:  S2_4-core-nations-p3449-4.patch added by jtn (29kB - text/x-patch - trunk/S2_4 r21754: add TRANS comments for "core" nation legends)
file #16316:  trunk-core-nations-p3449-ter.patch added by jtn (26kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_4 r21725: +Spanish, -Vietnamese)
file #16317:  S2_4-core-nations-p3449-ter.patch added by jtn (26kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_4 r21725: +Spanish, -Vietnamese)
file #16238:  trunk-core-nations-p3449-bis.patch added by jtn (25kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_4 r21642: add Pirates/Barbarians to Core)
file #16239:  S2_4-core-nations-p3449-bis.patch added by jtn (26kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_4 r21642: add Pirates/Barbarians to Core)
file #16220:  trunk-core-nations-p3449.patch added by jtn (25kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_4 r21632 + patch #3449)
file #16221:  S2_4-core-nations-p3449.patch added by jtn (25kB - text/x-diff - trunk/S2_4 r21632 + patch #3449)
file #16132:  core.patch added by mixcoatl (26kB - text/x-diff)

 

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Items that depend on this one: None found

 

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  • -unavailable- added by cazfi (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by hubkow (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by jtn (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by mixcoatl (Submitted the item)
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    Follow 15 latest changes.

    Date Changed By Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced By
    Wed 08 Aug 2012 04:51:42 PM UTCjtnStatusReady For Test=>Done
      Open/ClosedOpen=>Closed
    Tue 07 Aug 2012 01:18:55 PM UTCjtnAttached File-=>Added trunk-core-nations-p3449-4.patch, #16336
      Attached File-=>Added S2_4-core-nations-p3449-4.patch, #16337
    Sun 05 Aug 2012 05:03:30 PM UTCjtnAttached File-=>Added trunk-core-nations-p3449-ter.patch, #16316
      Attached File-=>Added S2_4-core-nations-p3449-ter.patch, #16317
    Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:49:45 PM UTCjtnStatusNone=>Ready For Test
    Sun 29 Jul 2012 07:48:20 PM UTCjtnAttached File-=>Added trunk-core-nations-p3449-bis.patch, #16238
      Attached File-=>Added S2_4-core-nations-p3449-bis.patch, #16239
    Sun 29 Jul 2012 06:02:33 PM UTCjtnPlanned Release=>2.4.0,2.5.0
    Sat 28 Jul 2012 02:48:22 AM UTCjtnAttached File-=>Added trunk-core-nations-p3449.patch, #16220
      Attached File-=>Added S2_4-core-nations-p3449.patch, #16221
    Thu 26 Jul 2012 11:29:38 PM UTCjtnDependencies-=>Depends on patch #3449
    Thu 26 Jul 2012 10:24:35 PM UTCjtnDependencies-=>Depends on patch #3316
    Wed 18 Jul 2012 10:32:13 PM UTCmixcoatlAttached File-=>Added core.patch, #16132
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