patchFreeciv - Patches: patch #4787, Effect for whether city learns...

 
 
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patch #4787: Effect for whether city learns from tech being stolen

Submitted by:  Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Submitted on:  Sun 08 Jun 2014 12:05:13 PM UTC  
 
Category: NonePriority: 5 - Normal
Status: NonePrivacy: Public
Assigned to: NoneOpen/Closed: Open
Planned Release: 2.6.0

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Sun 08 Jun 2014 06:25:07 PM UTC, comment #3:

Well, you can always defend with diplomats anyway. And conquest gives tech too, I had one game in GT where my (an my alliance) advantage was lost very quickly because enemy took over my cities. And finally your ally can always back-stab you by giving everything to enemy.

Limited stealing however has other problem, it makes alliance considerably stronger, and they already are a bit two strong IMO (and quote some LT/GT people). Without any limitations (on alliances) games are caught up in acreation until only two super alliances are left, as being lone in the open, or even in smaller alliance is quite difficult. And such bipolar games are not too fun. (Well at least last games on GT are without allied victory so that stops such things at least a bit).

And even what you say I consider to not be too fair anyways. Maybe your opponent invested in econ/prod/military, and you can come and destroy his advantage with impunity. While he can do little about your advantage.

Though all that said your position is quite reasonable as for examples RTS do not have such concepts (mostly, but there are counter examples), so if you left behind in tech, you are behind. But if one wants such game, there can simply be option to disable any tech transfer (and make everyone more equal, allies or not)... I think jtn mentioned No_Tech_Source that should do that, so such possibility is/will be available. :) (I also agree that such (no tech transfer at all) games have a potential of being quite interesting).

But current half solution, that is semi exploitable does not seem too good. But maybe its just matter of taste. Thus option as suggested by jtn is probably best.

Edgaras Šeputis <morphles>
Sun 08 Jun 2014 04:14:31 PM UTC, comment #2:

In my experience it's very much needed to avoid situations where entire technological lead is lost because of one vulnerable city (for example the first beachhead in the enemy continent). I play with high researchcost, so each technology is very expensive and having no limitations on stealing them from the easy spot would break game balance completely.

Marko Lindqvist <cazfi>
Project Administrator
Sun 08 Jun 2014 03:45:18 PM UTC, comment #1:

If anyone wonders why I "bemoan" it, here is some explanation.

First of it's kinda free defense, and I can not see how that is a good thing. You just don't become totally immune to something if it attacked you, with regards to military units, so I do not see why it should be so with diplomatic actions.

Second, that immunity stayed forever, no matter who stole from home, and if city changed hands. So you might end up hitting cities that someone already stolen tech from, thus loosing resources on thing that I think is absolutely unknowable.

Third, (comes from second really) and probably most important, this allows, what I would consider, a kind of abuse of rules, in a sense. Suppose you are on a front line with enemy while your allies are further in a back, now if you research techs, you don't simply give them to your allies, but ask them to steal tech from front line cities. And your enemies can kiss the wall...

This is at very least obscure thing, probably insanely hard to counter, and just leaves a bad feeling to me.

Edgaras Šeputis <morphles>
Sun 08 Jun 2014 12:05:13 PM UTC, original submission:

morphles on IRC was bemoaning that cities getting harder for diplomats/spies to steal tech from is hardcoded and impossible to disable.

This whole area could do with improvement (patch #4551), but in the meantime, a simple City_Learns_From_Espionage effect that controls whether the city's 'steal' counter counts up would allow ruleset authors to opt out of this completely (by just setting it to '1' globally).

The natural implementation would only depend on properties of the victim (city, nation, etc), not any property of the aggressor.
I think that's as it should be; effects based on the unit doing espionage are I think best tied up with removing hardcoding of e.g. diplomats-can-only-steal-once, which is altogether more complicated.

Setting goal of 2.6.0, with the intention to implement if we get near to format freeze without anything better having turned up.

Jacob Nevins <jtn>
Project Administrator

 

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Carbon-Copy List
  • -unavailable- added by cazfi (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by morphles (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by jtn (Submitted the item)
  • -unavailable- added by jtn (Original request)
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    Sun 08 Jun 2014 12:05:13 PM UTCjtnCarbon-Copy-=>Added morphles
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