helpGna! Administration - Support: sr #218, what's the alternate ML ?

 
 
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sr #218: what's the alternate ML ?

Submitted by:  Benoît Audouard <baud123>
Submitted on:  Tue 27 Apr 2004 09:31:52 PM UTC  
 
Category: Mail and Mailing-ListPriority: 3 - Low
Severity: 1 - WishStatus: Works For Me
Privacy: PublicAssigned to: Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Open/Closed: ClosedOperating System: None

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Sun 02 May 2004 11:07:36 PM UTC, comment #4:

Thanks for addressing my question.
Well, I still think that you should have a recovery plan written somewhere (and kept internal) so that you can be faster to make decision and not rely on yourself being available (you go on holidays don't you ?!)
I do not ask for 24/7 and can live with a short downtime, nevertheless I prefer to be warned when there's a problem so that I can relay information at the same level as you are (which may be "xxx is unavailable, we're working on it, should be ok in 4h, we'll keep you informed through the project homepage").
just my 2 cents...
You know I'm indeed working on it as an amateur, but - being a professional - I'm sensible to user requirements (one of which being "why doesn't it work as before ?" when unfortunately something goes down... users always have high expectations when everything works smoothly ;-) )
You've convinced me that you work in a professional state of mind, thanks !

Benoît Audouard <baud123>
Fri 30 Apr 2004 10:49:52 AM UTC, comment #3:

"Now let's imagine that gna.org were unavailable (or the project hosting) : how would I know it ? I cannot receive mail or see the gna! front page as they are unavailable..."

Well, Gna! is composed of several machines, they are unlikely to be all down at the same time. But even if it happens, admins of Gna! still have others machines, that cannot handle Gna! but that are enough to keep users informed.

The lack of information, in my experience, is more due to a state of mind than to technical problems.

"Otherwise you enforce slavery ;-)) which is an image of me being enslaved as I cannot be informed, cannot help, just have to wait... "

Hum, I have a different understanding of slavery, but I understand what you mean.

"becomes crucial once you have no way of communicating to your users (unless you have a backup plan with another server available that can take over and restore the service for example)."

We clearly do not have the money to have more than 3 machines dedicated to Gna!. So if the place where the computers are stored was burning, we would surely not be able to restablish the services the same day. However, this case is a bit extreme (it happened with the machine hosting security.debian.org once, if I remember well, but I cannot think of any other example) and we cannot afford an insurance against such unexpected troubles.

That's said, Gna! was designed and set up in a very short time, I guess that, if we had to do it one more time, I would be pretty fast.

So in case of "normal" trouble, like one machine providing services offline, we would move the services temporarily to a spare machine we have. In case of several machines offline, it depends on the cause of trouble.
We do not offer warrantee of a 24h/24h availability service, but we would clearly not let things pending for several weeks.
For instance, it was possible to get savannah.gnu.org restarting the 5th december, with limited but essential services like CVS and download areas. That the choice we would have made, considering that buying a new machine and making lot of hacks everywhere to make the whole stuff fit-in in a new architecture designed in a hurry was not the best way to go for user's sake.

When I was not involved in Gna! and more involved in Savannah savannah.gnu.org, no downtime for more than one day happened because I made choices to avoid that. I intend to make Gna! following that approach. Clearly, a downtime of one month is not an option in my mind. In fact, I dont understand how it can be an option to anyone, unless you think you are only dealing with amateurs (amateurs is not an insult, but amateurs expectations are obviously lower than professional ones, their salary is not at stakes -- but indeed, many amateurs out there are in fact professionals doing here a non-paid job, as amateurs).

Apart from that, projects should make backups of their data. We do store backup on several machines, but who knows?

I think we will in a short time propose a daily (or weekly) backup tarball (including sql and cvs data and arch data) that projects can keep, and that could be used to restore their project (even elsewhere).

Does it address your questions?

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Thu 29 Apr 2004 07:35:21 PM UTC, comment #2:

I missed my target to get understood ;-) I've forgotten to give you some context indeed, my question is related to an hypothetical unavailability of gna.org

Tuxfamily and Lost-Oasis were examples (see the links I gave you as this was the case - is still the case for tuxfamily webmail). Now let's imagine that gna.org were unavailable (or the project hosting) : how would I know it ? I cannot receive mail or see the gna! front page as they are unavailable...
Hence my original question : hope I've been more clear ?

Otherwise you enforce slavery ;-)) which is an image of me being enslaved as I cannot be informed, cannot help, just have to wait...

This question is related to security as it addresses the continuity of service, that's not a crucial issue as long as it is hypothetical, it becomes crucial once you have no way of communicating to your users (unless you have a backup plan with another server available that can take over and restore the service for example). I do not ask a full description of your architecture, only what is planned if the hosting were to be temporarily unavailable : my link describes alternate procedures to keep communication.
I think what I described applies to tuxfamily as well as gna.org as I'm relying on your services.

Benoît Audouard <baud123>
Wed 28 Apr 2004 02:06:43 PM UTC, comment #1:
[NEED INFO]

Hello,

I am not sure to exactly understand your request.

"let's imagine that tuxfamily.org mail or lost-oasis is unavailable (not that unrreal :[...]
how would you react if gna.org ML were unavailable ?"

It is unclear to me how tuxfamily and lost-oasis mail unavailability would have any consequences over gna.org ML.

"I'm hosting my development project on your site, so I'm supposed to be informed of change"

We post announces on the Gna! front page and at project --at-- gna.org.

"What do you think of it ?"

But of what?

"(you can contribute to tuxfamily.org coming back to life I think...)"

?

"Am I set free ?"

I'm not involved in slavery, am I?

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 27 Apr 2004 09:31:52 PM UTC, original submission:

let's imagine that tuxfamily.org mail or lost-oasis is unavailable (not that unrreal : http://linuxfr.org/~TiGr0u/12020.html)
how would you react if gna.org ML were unavailable ?
I propose this : http://vhffs.org/wakka.php?wiki=BesoinsUtilisateurs
how would this apply to gna.org ?

I'm hosting my development project on your site, so I'm supposed to be informed of changes (what ML am I subscribed by default - as should be my contributors ? - -unavailable- should be a default for emergency project information for hosting)
What do you think of it ? (you can contribute to tuxfamily.org coming back to life I think...)
Am I set free ? (the Who) not depending on your hosting site and being kept informed ?
think about it twice ;-) or thrice !

Benoît Audouard <baud123>

 

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    Follow 5 latest changes.

    Date Changed By Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced By
    Fri 30 Apr 2004 10:49:52 AM UTCyeupouStatusNone=>Works For Me
      Open/ClosedOpen=>Closed
    Wed 28 Apr 2004 02:06:43 PM UTCyeupouSeverity6 - Security=>1 - Wish
      Assigned toNone=>yeupou
    Wed 28 Apr 2004 02:06:42 PM UTCyeupouPriority5 - Normal=>3 - Low
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