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task #2876: avoiding automatically created accounts (suggestions welcome)

Submitted by:  Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Submitted on:  Fri 03 Feb 2006 10:14:29 AM UTC  
 
Should Start On: Thu 02 Feb 2006 11:00:00 PM UTCShould be Finished on: Fri 02 Feb 2007 11:00:00 PM UTC
Category: Web FrontendStatus: Postponed
Priority: 1 - LaterPlanned Release: 
Assigned to: NoneOpen/Closed: Open
Privacy: PublicFor/By: None

(Jump to the original submission Jump to the original submission)

Wed 15 Nov 2006 02:28:59 PM UTC, SVN revision 6329:

Account name is no longer mention in the mail sent on account
creation to prevent too easy account creation by robots
(please read task #2876).

(Browse SVN revision 6329)

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Wed 15 Nov 2006 02:23:46 PM UTC, comment #11:

I believe that the mark spam feature should help in this regard, as it is now very easy to ban a misused account.

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Thu 16 Feb 2006 01:32:42 PM UTC, comment #10:

Also: the account name should be deleted from the mail automatically sent on account creation.

Yes, this was added per user request.

But if we remove it, a bot will be able to create several account at once without wasting time by searching the actual proper account name to fill in (doable, but still he will have to remember what he previously filled in)

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Thu 16 Feb 2006 12:08:42 PM UTC, comment #9:

Interesting and easy to implement proposal: http://linuxfr.org/comments/682549.html#682549

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Thu 16 Feb 2006 11:41:06 AM UTC, comment #8:

On the other hand, some humans may not like having to wait some time before getting to work :)

But maybe delaying would be a good path. It's a lead.

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Thu 16 Feb 2006 11:37:11 AM UTC, comment #7:

To be able to defeat a bot, you must use what differenciate a human from a bot. All your solutions are simple solutions that a bot can understand. An automatic solution to the problem is not a solution as there is or there will be an automatic answer for bots.

I have no solution for you. And I even wonder if there is one. All the solutions I found were not real solutions (for example, ask a simple question such as "what color is a banana?" and let the user enter the answer).

A thing that differenciates humans from bots is the notion of time. If there is enough time between the creation submission and the mail confirmation, it could be ok. Because a human can wait. A bot which creates thousands of accounts can't wait and save all the informations. That is just an idea.

Julien BERNARD <axolotl>
Tue 14 Feb 2006 03:47:00 PM UTC, comment #6:

In fact, the big issue is the fact that we are trying to implement a logic thing that we expect robots to be unable to understand. But if we can implement it, robots can learn it,
there is no doubt about.

So far, the idea that seems the better to me is my apple thing in comment #2. But I could easily find ways to break it. It is just a matter of finding the mapping between images and words (well, the more image we have, the harder it is... but the harder to maintain it is also) and then making md5sums of each images. Then downloading images, finding their md5sums and voilà the answer is know.
Well, indeed it makes way more complicated the spam process. But it is just escalation one more time.

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Tue 14 Feb 2006 03:40:59 PM UTC, comment #5:

Actually, the only option they provide without cons is

http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0319-csun-m3m/slide22-0.html

and I don't agree with them.

"Public key infrastructure:

A decentralized system allows users to identify themselves, without looking to a third party

Pros
No further need for user tests
Fewer concerns about privacy

Cons
Doesn't exist... yet"

They forget that the biggest issue is to get that infrastructure in place and really and easily usable by users... No to mention that it is only deporting the issue, and this infrastructure will be confronted to the issue itself.

Their conclusion:

"CAPTCHA is a poor solution
bars access
ineffective
already exploited

Developers need to look at the real problem
how much access control is needed?
how can we deliver it without breaking standards and accessibility?"

Well, something poorly effective is probably better than nothing.

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Tue 14 Feb 2006 03:32:07 PM UTC, comment #4:

Interesting to read about the whole issue:
http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0319-csun-m3m/slide6-0.html

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Tue 14 Feb 2006 03:29:03 PM UTC, comment #3:

Another option would be to add rel="nofollow" to links added by anonymous users.

Well, actually it may just be a pain in the ass to differenciate what as been posted by anonymous and the rest, and putting the rel="nofollow" on every message defeat the efficiency of web crawlers.

Not to mention that it does not prevent the spams to be added an to be annoying.

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Tue 14 Feb 2006 02:39:14 PM UTC, comment #2:

Another approach would be to ask friends to confirm that the users is human. Kind of web of trust idea. The obvious issue is that it requires manual intervention. Painy.

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Tue 14 Feb 2006 02:18:01 PM UTC, comment #1:

Another idea:

For all anonymous forms, we print an icon... and 5 radio boxes of possible answers.

I doubt any OCR would able to recognize an apple.
Indeed, the image source link should not be predictable (duh, if the image is "apple.png", then ...).

This indeed is not friendly to blind people.


Another option would to use a synonym dictionnary and asking to find the proper synonym. But it would turns item submission into a game. And robots could do the same (indeed their job would get complicated, but that's just the usual escalation...).

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator
Fri 03 Feb 2006 10:14:29 AM UTC, original submission:

We need to be able to forbid robots to create accounts. There are already robots that know how to spam savane anonymously. The next step for these robots is to learn how to create an account.
The mail confirmation is apparently not enough to prevent this.

I do not like the option of printing an image with a text and asking the user to enter the related text. It just increase the cost of spam chasing, as generating images cost CPU time, it causes troubles to blind people, and in the end will just lead spammer to improve their robots in regards of OCR.

I have simpler idea: for any non-logged in form submission (that includes account creation form), we print a sentence and the user is ask to find a string contained in it.
As such, we need a list of possible sentences and system clever enough to be easily understable only to human.

For instance, you would have a sentence, or a list of words like
"Caricatures de Mahomet: la crise rebondit à Gaza, le Danemark ne s'excusera pas" and the question would be "the 4th word from the left is". The form would be valid only if "la" is found. The question could be also "the 5th word from the right after le".
Indeed, if we write an algorythm able to find the proper word given the args, robots could just grab our code.

So I guess the way it should work would be to get a string first, to encode it via md5, to add it in the form (as hidden field), then to add randomly others words to the left and to the right and to write the question according to the number of words added. On form submission, we just have to compare the md5.

Indeed, this solution is not perfect:
- the robots could simply md5 each words and find the one that is expected
- the robots could learn to understand our question

- For the first problem, we may not put the md5 in the string but put it in the form_id table instead.
- For the second, I'm trying to think about something still easy to understand for a human but more complex for a IA to get. The problem is the fact that the question must simple logic, anything else would not be user-friendly. But simple IA can understand simple logic.

Feedback welcome.

Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Project Administrator

 

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Carbon-Copy List
  • -unavailable- added by axolotl (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by yeupou (Submitted the item)
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